Shield, Bows, 2handers - loot rule changes.

[Xslia]

Lets just say this has triggered some very strong emotional and passionate responses. Who said what/when/where is getting a bit to specific and should be worked out in private messages.

This rule is not something I came up with overnight and on a whim, it has been building for over a year - more like 2. I've had several discussion - passionate ones at that also, with others, and not one specific final rule could be agreed upon, so the last final form of the rule rested on me. We have a large raider base that we have to gear up - just as the no exchange weapon rule we implemented in UF that allow someone to take 2 weapons and exchange it for 1 - made no sense to us a raid team - unless those weapons rotted. We could have had 2 raiders with much needed weapons vs 1 raider who took 2 and made it into one. We are only taking about 3 items - shields, 2hdr, and bows. There is no rule here that says you can never have that item if your not on the class list - it just means you wait - gear up your other slots, then come back to this one.

[Hughjeee]

But.....But....... They are SHINY !!!!!!

[Jeldar]

My 2 cents....

1. What is the problem with setting the value to 21 ? ( Hoping to hear from X or J on this)

If a raider is unwilling to bid 21 for that item..... ........IMO that person does NOT want it. (To be honest, I would prefer 51 so it goes to someone with at LEAST 35% raid attendance, please read Huge's post, and Kivs).

You are giving away free loot if that item goes for 1 point. That is fact . ( I dont blame people bidding one since the rule is IMO ----> Flawed. It needs to be adjusted.)

I am with Eagles I have to call the bullshit flag on non-tanks dont need gear. IF that is true --- then TANKs should get first DIBs on all loot, all the time. ( I do agree that Tanks are more gear dependent but that fact has nothing to do with other raiders needing gear..... We all NEED upgrades... please see the MC raid).


Thanks !

Jeldar
Proud Member of Public

PS this really made me laugh.....

jaerlyn worte:
"Ok, folks. First off, be civil. Nothing wrong with disagreeing and voicing your opinions, but it does no one any good to just mouth off.

@ Zephur - You make a bunch of completely unsupported comments, and try to pass them off as fact. "

I dont know which part was funnier the fact that Jaerlyn made the comment and then proceed to kick Zephur or the fact that Zephur was RIGHT........ or both!

=)

[Hughjeee]

I miss Emodius....

[Augustas-]

All of our focus effects for instruments capped off on Demiplane of Blood gear. Bards also technically benefit the least from weapons as well.

so they just never fixed your class?

[jaerlyn]

@ Jeldar - Couple Things.

First, my comment to Zephur IS civil. Calling people names, ranting at people, etc... that is not civil. Throwing in -very- unsupported terms like 'worthless' etc, also is not civil.

Pointing out where someone is factually incorrect or simply making assumptions is perfectly civil, provided non-abusive language is used. (Doesn't mean people LIKE the comment, just that it's civil.)
Zephur's comments are, for the most part, unsupported by historical evidence. That doesn't make him wrong, mind you. Which is why I don't say he's wrong. I'm saying his interpretation of the data does not logically follow, given historical evidence. His comments may be proven right. It's not a statistical impossibility. It does not follow from the historical data, however.

Second, you ask about the problem with setting the value to 21.

The intention of this rule is to keep people from attempting to acquire items that do not increase their ability to perform their raid role. It has absolutely nothing to do with dkp. It's that simple. I'll also fully agree that we have to make sure it doesn't get abused. That being said I have absolutely -zero- problem with telling the rogues and monks that they cannot bid on a shield. (The rog / monk / war shield seems to be constantly being brought up here, even though it's an abberation.) People keep using Wan getting that shield for one as an example of how casters are getting screwed... /shrug.

Xslia and I talked about the shield issue pertaining to casters, as well. We don't -think- we'll actually have an issue there. We've discussed labeling some shields as 'tank' and some for 'casters' and may end up doing so, if she feels it is needed.

(Again.. note the distinctions I'm at least trying to make here. A shield on a caster is a 'generic' piece of gear. It increases their hp/mana totals, and is something they equip as standand. A shield on a ranger ... is not.)

We are hoping that itemization itself will put enough shields 'on the market' for the casters. However, if a shield is itemized for tanking, yet has shaman on it... we do NOT want the shamans going for it. (On the same note, we don't want the tanks going after the shields optimized for casters, either.) Again, we are watching to see if we'll have to edit the rules for this, as well. Xslia has also already edited the rule, to make it clear once you have one of these items, you cannot go after another one of the same tier.

Will we see a couple tanks get shields for 1? Yep. Will it be the common, through next expansion? History says no, but of course we'll have to wait and see.


Oh, and Eagles -

[Mon Jun 20 22:08:13 2011] You told eagles, 'i realyl, really hope you didn't just bid to make him pay more.'
[Mon Jun 20 22:08:24 2011] Eagles tells you, 'Nope I want a 2hb '
[Mon Jun 20 22:08:42 2011] You told Eagles, 'just to have one?'
[Mon Jun 20 22:09:45 2011] Eagles tells you, 'Nope but bear in mind I also gear for the group game, and for the group game that woudl be better then dual wielding... less dmage icmoing'
[Mon Jun 20 22:10:03 2011] You told Eagles, 'right, but bear in mind, i have no problem punishing people, for bidding for the group game '
[Mon Jun 20 22:10:33 2011] Eagles tells you, 'Well IMHO there is a differnce between bidding for dstroy lieke was done adn bidding as you wnat stuff for yoru main'
[Mon Jun 20 22:12:38 2011] Eagles tells you, 'I won;t bid to be a dick (other then 20 for a monk usuealbe shield) but if I see an item I want and will use I will bid on it'

That's the pertinent bits. You are confusing a different conversation (a couple months later) where you talked about a -tier 4- 2hander maybe being a DPS upgrade.

A couple notes: Xslia handles DKP. Punishment from me comes in the form of increased sit-out time for a while, and -extremely rarely, and with Xslia's approval- telling people to take a week or so off raiding. Also note, I try to get people in about half the time, on average. If you happen to go from 90% in to 50% in... that's not punishment. That's raid makeup. If you drop below 50% (on average) in... that's when you talk to me. If I've got a lot of your class, it's possible for people to slip between the cracks, especially during progression time. During farm time, it doesn't happen to often, though. I also rarely do things 'on the spur of the moment' because I try to find time to sit back and think about it, before I punish anyone. (On the above night in question, for example, I had eagles in the raid for the next target as well (grounds) and he was in the instance as well, after the move, and getting the instance, until he decided to go ahead and log for the night.)

---

Oh, and Jeldar ... saying 'That is fact' ... does not make something fact, especially since by it's definition, if it costs 1 dkp, it's not free. Actually, it's 1 dkp.

[jaerlyn]

A couple tidbits on some other things...

I've never said non-tanks don't need gear. Not once. I have, however, pointed out that for non-tanks a properly group geared toon is sufficient in most cases. It's the player -behind- the toon that truly makes the difference. I could put Yllaena, and Babsy in pure group gear (yes, I know 2.0s are technically raid, but also technically, they don't wear them anymore) and it wouldn't make a difference on a single raid we do. On the tanking side, if Cellar swaps to group gear... he can no longer do his job.

Zephur once told me that when HoT came out, he swapped completely over to group gear. I also know he's not the only one. For the tanks, however... I couldn't even upgrade my cloak from Warrens. Even though it was 2 Expacs old.

I will, however, admit I -was- able to swap my Tower shoulder. I know a couple other tanks that did as well. And some got one or two other pieces from group gear, if the old stuff was 'under-optimized', and the new stuff was 'over-optimized'

I will also say this - I believe almost every raid in HoT could be done with tanks in raid gear, and the rest of the raid in group gear. This includes MC. Very few raids could be done, if the tanks were in group gear, even if the rest of the raid was in raid gear. Even on the timed events, group gear would -probably- be enough to not loose due to timers.

As for tanks getting first dibs on all loot... that's actually how most of the top-end guilds do it. There are people who feel we should do something similar, actually, though neither me nor Xslia are included in that number.

I completely agree we all need upgrades. That's actually the entire point of this rule. So that people do NOT bid on things that don't actually UPGRADE them. The caster/shield issue is a possible flaw, absolutely. We'll be watching to see if we have to edit things. In the meantime, it's -one- slot. And while it's the most valuable slot for the tanks... the 'extra' value on a caster is negligible. A group shield on a caster isn't really any different than a group back on a caster. However, for the tanks the difference is huge.

Sigh... I really, really dislike this 'gear reset every expac' mentality the devs have gone with.



Shields are, however... shiny. I'll agree with that, as well

[Eagles]

@
Oh, and Eagles -

[Mon Jun 20 22:08:13 2011] You told eagles, 'i realyl, really hope you didn't just bid to make him pay more.'
[Mon Jun 20 22:08:24 2011] Eagles tells you, 'Nope I want a 2hb '
[Mon Jun 20 22:08:42 2011] You told Eagles, 'just to have one?'
[Mon Jun 20 22:09:45 2011] Eagles tells you, 'Nope but bear in mind I also gear for the group game, and for the group game that woudl be better then dual wielding... less dmage icmoing'
[Mon Jun 20 22:10:03 2011] You told Eagles, 'right, but bear in mind, i have no problem punishing people, for bidding for the group game '
[Mon Jun 20 22:10:33 2011] Eagles tells you, 'Well IMHO there is a differnce between bidding for dstroy lieke was done adn bidding as you wnat stuff for yoru main'
[Mon Jun 20 22:12:38 2011] Eagles tells you, 'I won;t bid to be a dick (other then 20 for a monk usuealbe shield) but if I see an item I want and will use I will bid on it'

Funny that does not look like our SS raid a few days ago with it being in June.

Wrong conversation.

I said that I did not know if the 2hb was an upgrade from T4. You said I stated it was not. Now since Xslia had said thigns were getting to specific and it should go to PM's I was going to not post my logs (yes I log everythign too). But since you want to slander me by using an OLD conversation when we are referring to a current coversation I will post it when I get home tongiht.

Your post is from when Stomp one the 2hb from MC. We were talking about when I bid 20 (first mind you) and a zerker also bid 20 (when he could have raised) and I won the random and you started bitching in tells. And as I stated before then weapion in question has proved useful in raids on me where it would NOT have been useful on the berserker (since he already has a better weapon).


EDIT: I went back and re-read your post, and you did specify the MC hammer (which I did not get). Point is this was about the SS hammer which I got and that conversation was quite different. I missed in my earlier response to you and this one (until I went back) that you were talking about a 3 month old conversation and not the relevant one of a couple days ago.

[jaerlyn]

@ Eagles ...

um... Xslia mentions the '350 bid' and also the 'first drop' part.... SHE is also talking about the MC event, when she does so. (Yes, she edited her post, to change the first 350 to 150, since she had put 350 twice. You bid 150, stomp raised to 200, and won.) Edited or not, I would think it would have been obvious to you which raid she was referring to.

She is -obviously- therefore NOT talking about the SS event.


I'm not sure how we could have made it clearer. The event was commented on by name (by me.) She referenced you 150dkp bid (again, MC.) Also, while it's possible you said it at both times (no idea,) her reference to the 'bidding to 350' ... is also something you said during MC event.

At what point did we reference SS?

If you somehow thought we were talking about SS... I can't figure out how.

The SS event actually had ZERO bearing on this rule. Xslia had already informed the leaders (via the leaders forum) that this would be going into place soon. (She posted it the morning before the SS event, as a matter of fact.)

YOU are the one who is misrepresenting things. I have no clue how you can say we were talking about the SS raid. It was -never- relevant. I stated stuff from MC. Xslia stated stuff from MC. (The 350 bid stuff.)

[Eagles]

The SS event is relevant because it was they day before the policy happened.
And there was signifignat complaints in tells to my bidding.

[Tue Sep 20 20:44:19 2011] Jaerlyn tells you, 'you really took that from a zerker?'
[Tue Sep 20 20:44:30 2011] You told Jaerlyn, 'was he a zerrker did not check shiclass'
[Tue Sep 20 20:44:37 2011] You told Jaerlyn, 'and udner 21 yes from anyone'
[Tue Sep 20 20:46:38 2011] Jaerlyn tells you, 'buying an item for group (which is what we both know you just did) ... is just something you shouldn't be doing.'
[Tue Sep 20 20:46:42 2011] Jaerlyn tells you, 'price shouldn't matter.'
[Tue Sep 20 20:47:10 2011] You told Jaerlyn, 'for what its worth I willneed ot parse to knwo if that 2hb is better hten my current dual wield it might berightnow'
[Tue Sep 20 20:47:43 2011] You told Jaerlyn, 'and I do sometiems sue 2hb in raids though it is PRIMARILY used ingrop'
[Tue Sep 20 20:47:46 2011] Jaerlyn tells you, 'that's not why you bid on it, eagles. you know that as well as i do'
[Tue Sep 20 20:47:58 2011] Jaerlyn tells you, 'you bid so you could use in group'
[Tue Sep 20 20:48:07 2011] You told Jaerlyn, 'Primarily yes'
[Tue Sep 20 20:48:19 2011] You told Jaerlyn, 'HellI ahve bid on shields before too if they were cheap'
[Tue Sep 20 20:48:38 2011] You told Jaerlyn, 'though granted they are not used for pullgin any mroe liek they were when I won my last one'

Your first comment to me didnto mention the MC event.

@ Eagles - You make the comment that 'supposedly we progress as a team' ... yet you have bid on gear, that was -not- an upgrade (by your own admission), for the STATED purpose (again, by you) of using it in the group game. To me, -that- is not progressing as a team.

If you read my post shortly following yours it was obvious I was referring I thought your first post was about the SS 2hb. I mentioned T4 2 hander and that I did not know if it was more DPS or not until I parsed it.


It was after that you said you were quoting me and mentioned MC which i missed the first time. Probably because up until then it seemed we were talking about SS. You asserted I said things in that conversation which I had not... Again consdiering that coversation was a couple days before as compared to 3 months back it was reasonable (though in this case incorrect) to think that is what you were talking about. After all it is what I had responded to in your previous post making it obvious I was talking about the SS 2 hander. You then claimed I was the one not being honest which pissed me off as I was. Frankly I don't give a damn about making myself look better I am stating facts.

You can also note that in my post after that I again references the SS 2hb since I still thought you were ranting about that. It was not until after you had posted the converesation we had in June that I realized you were going back ot the old conversation rather than the far more recent (and in my opinion relevent one).

So in conclustion in both cases I bid on something that was an upgrade. The SS item has been used in raids and MAY have saved a wipe in current content.

I make no apology for bidding on it, in retrospect I am glad I got it and I consider it an upgrade, for both group and raids.

If you disagree that is your perogative but I think it was a good and useful upgrade.

[Pravus]

I completely agree we all need upgrades. That's actually the entire point of this rule. So that people do NOT bid on things that don't actually UPGRADE them. The caster/shield issue is a possible flaw, absolutely. We'll be watching to see if we have to edit things. In the meantime, it's -one- slot. And while it's the most valuable slot for the tanks... the 'extra' value on a caster is negligible. A group shield on a caster isn't really any different than a group back on a caster. However, for the tanks the difference is huge.

tanks return over softcap ac is 40-45%
casters return over softcap ac is 6%

all shield ac is considered UNDER softcap making Shields the most valuable piece of defensive equipment for a caster

a back item with similar stats to a shield isnt worth nearly as much to a caster as the shield is

shield 240ac = a gain of 144 ac over a non shield piece of armor for a tank
shield 240ac = a gain of over 225 ac over a non shield piece of armor for a caster



so please dont try to spin it off as some negligible upgrade for casters

[jaerlyn]

@ Pravus - As a caster, you can equip a 10 ac shield vs a 200 ac shield, and -cannot- parse the difference on raid event mobs. That's why I used the term 'negligible.' Your 'total' real AC is so low, that it makes no -effective- difference. Also note, I didn't say you shouldn't be using a shield. I'm simply stating that the difference between a group shield and a raid shield, for a non-tank... is meaningless (when referring to ACs.) Thus, while it's more AC than a back, it's still not -effective- AC. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. (As an aside, Shield Block -which operates regardless of the numbers on a shield- is huge.)

Oh, and as another aside... Silkies (and druids, for that matter) have approx 20% return after softcap. (As of somewhere around SoF.)


@ Eagles - The SS Event wasn't the day before the policy happened... It was simply the day before the policy went live. -And is still entirely IRRELEVANT to the conversation, since the ONLY event I mentioned, was the MC one.-

I never mentioned SS. Not once. My quotes from you are from the MC event. The fact that you had forgotten them is also irrelevant. It doesn't make them any less -your- statements.

[Eagles]

And as I commented Jaer, your first comment did not mention MC your later ones did. Thus I assuem they were all following from the first commetn and overlooked your mentioing MC from June.

[Jeldar]

First, Thanks for the quick response and dialogue.


I have talked to Xslia about this rule before she put it in place. I do believe that sending TELLs to people while they are bidding is just asking for drama. As leaders, if you believe there is an ONGOING issue it should be fixed with a rule that tries to be as fair as possible. Yes, I know LIFE is not fair, EQ is not fair, but Public has tried to be, and I think, does an awesome job of being fair. THANK YOU Xslia !!!

I have no problem with the giving of Bows to rangers, shields to tanks, and 2handers to zerks first. ( This rule solves concerns that raid leadership has about loot and limits tells to people who are getting geeked up at the chance to win an item).


My issue is giving it to them at ONE DKP.

Second, you ask about the problem with setting the value to 21.

The intention of this rule is to keep people from attempting to acquire items that do not increase their ability to perform their raid role. It has absolutely nothing to do with dkp. It's that simple. I'll also fully agree that we have to make sure it doesn't get abused. That being said I have absolutely -zero- problem with telling the rogues and monks that they cannot bid on a shield. (The rog / monk / war shield seems to be constantly being brought up here, even though it's an abberation.) People keep using Wan getting that shield for one as an example of how casters are getting screwed... /shrug.

The rule has 2 parts. First the item in question and Second the value of the item.
I have no problem with the first part.
Since there is DKP involved with the RULE, it has EVERYTHING to do with DKP.

so, I ask again,

What is the problem with 21 points of DKP ?


Thanks!


Jeldar
Proud Member of Public Raid Force

[Hughjeee]

Offer these items for a minimum amount of DKP (i.e. 21), if none of the above classes accept to pay that much for it then open it to raid-wide bidding IMHO