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Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:45 pm
by Tanican
I sure many of you may have noticed that we have been recently testing and using a tanking rotation that switches MT when Final Stand is Fading. I suggest we make this the normal operating procedure for the following reasons:
1) Smoother transistion for the next tank, allowing them time to start ramping up their agro and tanking abilities.
2) Smoother transition for the Healers, allowing them to be ready for the tank swap, instead of chasing through the tank list trying to land on the tank that is next before he dies.
3) It is more mana efficient for our healers to heal a tank on DISC than one that isn't.
4) It would cut down on the deaths and time and mana wasted on rezzing and buffing.
5) Our tanks are way more effective when not dealing with rez effects and not being wiped out on Endurance.
All of these leads the raid as a whole in the direction of being more effective, efficient, and moving more quickly through targets and accomplishing more each night. All this means more loot more loot and more loot for all.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:35 pm
by Thrillho
I don't think anyone is going to argue with you on this one - more communication is good. It's useful for melee as well - some of us (hah, not monks) pull a lot of aggro, and it's useful to know when a tank is being swapped out and the aggro might go a bit wonky, so we may hold off on a burn for a few seconds to avoid a rez.
While we're talking about tanks, can we add an assist call from the MT as well for the named fights please?
Typically, the MA calls an assist, which may or may not coincide with adequate aggro from the tank. There have been times when assist has been called when a tank hasn't generated enough aggro to control the mob, which results in a few dead meleers. Last night I heard you in Vent say you had the mob. Just from my experience grouping with you, I know that when you say that I can go full bore and not have to worry about ganking aggro. So I started my fight. It took about 5 seconds for the assist to call for the rest of the raid - that can be 2.5 to 5 million damage overall - and typically more difficult to generate at the end of a fight than the beginning.
Yes, there are instances where we may need to delay the attack for whatever reason. But more often than not, I'm sure the delay is from allowing the tank to get adequate aggro.
For trash / adds / (pulls), faster assist calls are needed and have been needed for a while. Some people are great at swapping over to the proper mob and calling assist, others not-so-much. For Vulak and his drake adds, we need almost instant assist calls to down them fast.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:16 am
by feolina
For Vulak fight it might also be good to have a few of the healers each taking one of the add tanks as those adds hit hard and if we aren't concentrating on one tank a heal might be missed and our goes splat fast.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:16 am
by Eagles
There once was a time when warriors needed time to build up aggro... now is not that time.
Once the tank has positioned the mob the entire raid should be able to unload.
Warrior shoud click BP before running in, hit fortitude, blast of anger, scowl (or whatever it is called now), bellow, move the mob to position. Pop his doppleganger, hit his aggro AA's (like the one that makes you proc every swing). At this point all DPS should be able to unload.
Use everything, that is why you have it, and keep using it every time it respawns (if you are the tank).
If you are second tank use yoru blast of anger, scowl and bellow, watch your aggro meter jstu to maek sure you do not steal aggro from main tank and then when it is your turn HAVE AN AGGRO BUTTON TO PUSH. When Ugh tanks in AH raids (has not for a while since it is so late), if I need to take aggro it is mine. I hit Fortitude (or sometimes furious depending on situation). Hit my aggro button (Single AE taunt, weapon proc AA, a few other aggro things). Warriors have GREAT snap aggro, will take aggro off a SK who started the fight with a harmtouch.
So don't be lazy as a warriro or a dps.
DPS need to do a lot to burn, they can't just AFK and attack on.
Warriors need to do a lot for their aggro (but if they do it is awesome) you can't just attack on and afk.
The only thing that should give a warrior trouble is Mage pets and those while they may be higher aggro then you (I know Ugh has to work to stay above Galeons pet on aggro) it is not going to steal aggro even if it is above you.
So to sum it up,
1) grab mob,
2) position mob,
3)go to town on aggro,
4) bitch about lousy loot.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:42 am
by kaneldar
There was a time when we did have a rotation order and it worked quite well.Not quite sure why it's changed.
Eagles,harm touch doesn't pull aggro like it used to,if I want to do that it's unbroken acrimony,ageless enimity,terror of poira,demand for power and it's mine.I have 3 other aggro spells/abilities/aa's ready to make sure it stays mine.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:30 pm
by Eagles
kaneldar wrote:There was a time when we did have a rotation order and it worked quite well.Not quite sure why it's changed.
Eagles,harm touch doesn't pull aggro like it used to,if I want to do that it's unbroken acrimony,ageless enimity,terror of poira,demand for power and it's mine.I have 3 other aggro spells/abilities/aa's ready to make sure it stays mine.
Kane,
Not saying that the SK can't take it back (when I tested harm touch was way back in UF) but I suspect that if you do your unbroken, ageless, terror and demand, I can take aggro pretty quickly.
If you get a chance, we should test it sometime because I do not want to be giving bad info. Group with my warrior on a mob, build up aggro then tell me to try and steal it.
Again I am not saying I can keep an SK trying for aggro from getting it. I am saying I can keep DPS from getting it, and I can instantly grab aggro from someone who has a lot more aggro built up than me. But it would be good to test it.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:15 pm
by kaneldar
If you want to try that sometime no problem,we can.It wasn't a challenge just a fact that if I wanted to take aggro from someone I could. I would never try to take aggro from the MT during a raid and neither should anyone else unless they are next tank in rotation.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:40 am
by Xslia
OOOOOOO OOOOOO AGGRO holding contests.. pick Hinkerrs please! (J/K). If you guys want a dps holler at me, I'm sure we can find one of each class to participate. Anything that helps us learn, I'm all for it.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:00 pm
by Tanican
Oh well I think my point was lost. It was more focused on a more effective way of tanking.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:17 pm
by Eagles
Tanican wrote:Oh well I think my point was lost. It was more focused on a more effective way of tanking.
Sorry, I did nt mean to derail it.
Just meant to point out that the MT should be able to grab and get aggro pretty much instantaneously and that DPS did not need to wait 5 min to assist like back in Velious days. Was really responding to Thrillho's post.
Yes, a good rotation is very useful for tank and will make it less mana intensive to heal though slightly more complex then just leaving one person up in a tank and spank. As we gear up more it is less needed as we get the ability to power through it though it is good to be in the habit of doing it.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:56 pm
by kaneldar
No,not lost Tan.We did have a very good system with tanks for rotation and I have been absent for quite awhile and don't really know what happened to it.Although there are only two tanks left that raided with me.From watching Silver's screen and hearing vent conversations best I can tell is it got lost amongst all the emotes,triggers etc.It should be in use every night but with so many folks in public its hard to set one as tanks vary night to night.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:59 pm
by Wolfjaws
We have about the same group of tanks each night, yes half of them suck at responding half the time, but you must remind them each night about tank swap... Not everyone is as engaged and yes its a problem, but nothing we can fix. We have been doing fine on tank swap. One night, first mob in ToV, you die, so what? lol Nothing wrong with tank swap with these warriors if its spoken of.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:44 am
by Xslia
Wolfjaws wrote:We have about the same group of tanks each night, yes half of them suck at responding half the time, but you must remind them each night about tank swap... Not everyone is as engaged and yes its a problem, but nothing we can fix. .
Jaerlyn and I can fix it.... let me know which ones are non responsive or won't respond. I know we have a channel for tanks to coordinate their activities, if need be I can join it and watch for myself. If it is being ignored or someone does not think it's important, dead wrong. Communication has ALWAYS been key and important among each class. I'm turning away 2 or 3 tanks a week on average who are begging for a raid spot.
We are expecting tank rotation's now on each fight and have been since Jaerlyn asked for this due to the number of warriors we had on in a fight, quite a while back. When you think about it, it just makes sense. At the beginning of each fight you see us asking for a "tank list" - that is the rotation list. If you miss your rotation - expect a tell asking why.
Re: Tanking Rotation Suggestion.
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:58 pm
by Hamilkar
It used to be if you did not have a rock solid tank rotation the raid would die ... Not at the named... you wouldn't even get a sniff of a named at that point. Then the Devs decided to mix things up a bit. They made knights more effective at tanking and agro generation. Tank orders became less of an issue than spamming heals on whomever was being hit (and mixing in lots of group heals to counter the increasingly massive ae's)
That said agro management (with what little I have seen of the new system) just became tremendously easier. Anyone can always pull agro off of a MT with the right combination on circumstances and luck. SK and Warriors can pull agro off another tank almost without trying if their gear is set up for agro generation. Paladins aren't far behind.
A good solid tank rotation requires LOTS of communication or lots of time spent working together as any of the really old school tanks will confirm. It also requires good coordination of enchanters if they are tossing agro increasing spells on the tanks. Healers, well they make the rotation work. We have pretty much always had healers good enough to make any tanking idea we tried work.