Shield, Bows, 2handers - loot rule changes.

[Xslia]

Over our raid history we have adapt, changed, modified, and added rules - hopefully always with the intent of progressing our raid force. We had several different loot rules under Ashorty time - we modified some after he retired, then I did away with some loot specific rules and class claims and awards. While those old rules are obsolete in today's game, one thing was made clear- the intent behind the rules. I want the best for this raid force and if we are to face the challenges head on in VoA our raiders need to be able to be equipped for raid content.\

Effective today 9/24/2011.
For the current top 2 tier raiders we do the following items are reserved for bidding on by the following classes. If none of these classes bids, then it can be opened up for those that can equip to bid on (attend % rules still apply):
Shields - Tanks (WAR, SK, PAL)
2 Handers - Beserkers
Bows - rangers

Any content below the top 2 tier raid content - these items are subject to normal loot rules.

[kotter]

I agree to the fact that as a raid force we do at times need to implament some changes to benifit the raidforce as a whole, but there needs to be some sort of comprimise on this to some extent,,,these classes need these weapons but i would think that there should be some sort of minimum dkp charged for them...21 has been what i have heard from others...this gaurentees the classes get the items they need and it isnt showing outright favoritism to classes...just 1 persons opinion....well, maybe more thaqn one person, but i actually posted it

[Pravus]

I agree to the fact that as a raid force we do at times need to implament some changes to benifit the raidforce as a whole, but there needs to be some sort of comprimise on this to some extent,,,these classes need these weapons but i would think that there should be some sort of minimum dkp charged for them...21 has been what i have heard from others...this gaurentees the classes get the items they need and it isnt showing outright favoritism to classes...just 1 persons opinion....well, maybe more thaqn one person, but i actually posted it

or make it free for all up to 20, and then anything beyond that only those classes can bid on it. Additionally where is the protection for daggers for rogues?

[Xslia]

I agree to the fact that as a raid force we do at times need to implament some changes to benifit the raidforce as a whole, but there needs to be some sort of comprimise on this to some extent,,,these classes need these weapons but i would think that there should be some sort of minimum dkp charged for them...21 has been what i have heard from others...this gaurentees the classes get the items they need and it isnt showing outright favoritism to classes...just 1 persons opinion....well, maybe more thaqn one person, but i actually posted it

or make it free for all up to 20, and then anything beyond that only those classes can bid on it. Additionally where is the protection for daggers for rogues?

Rogues get a rouge only weapon from every tier so I don't see a need to make all backstabbing items theirs first.

The minimum dkp was bantered around - we use to have 101 as the minimum - class claim rule, but I threw that rule out years ago. We had a beast get a shield the other night because no tank wanted it. Casters have caster shield options that are specific to them also.

[Huge]

What about a minimum lifetime DKP to be concidered to beable to get one of these items that will go for 1 DKP, unless you put a minimum bid on them.... Then if none of the "Special classes" bid it then drops to 1 DKP to start the bidding.
I personally like 51 DKP as a minimum bid, this way it will go to someone that really wants the items at a more realistic price, forces more distribution of lewts and will help to prevent someone from getting items cheap and "bailing" to another raidforce when they get some equipment ..../points at a shaman whos name starts with a W and ends with a daanxx.
It is BS that a "Tank" "Ranger" or "Zerker" can get an item that will go to them for 1DKP while others will more likely have to pay much much more, if not in this expansion for sure the next... and that is just around the corner.

That being said,
Yes Rangers should get bows first
Yes Tanks should get shields first
Yes Zerkers should get 2H weapons first

just my 2CP
Huge

[Razzull]

probably need to limit this freebie loot to every 3rd tier or once every 6 months. id say every other tier but even then means some classes will never ever get shields. we have 23 active tanks . 4 out of 6 shields in SS are tank usable. id guess in 8 clears over 2 months we be lucky to see 20shields. that yields 3 priests / 3 casters and 16 default tank shields. priest and casters will be forced to spend a months worth of dkp on theirs because of this rarity since multiclass shields are offlimits to them. meanwhile these restricted bid items allow those people to hoard dkp and buy all/all rings out from under the classes who had to pay high for their shields

i dont like it. its a slippery slope. it would seem pet focus should default to mages. spells to healers. caster shields to enc , etc. if it aint broke dont fix it. didnt seem to be a problem

[Pravus]

probably need to limit this freebie loot to every 3rd tier or once every 6 months. id say every other tier but even then means some classes will never ever get shields. we have 23 active tanks . 4 out of 6 shields in SS are tank usable. id guess in 8 clears over 2 months we be lucky to see 20shields. that yields 3 priests / 3 casters and 16 default tank shields. priest and casters will be forced to spend a months worth of dkp on theirs because of this rarity since multiclass shields are offlimits to them. meanwhile these restricted bid items allow those people to hoard dkp and buy all/all rings out from under the classes who had to pay high for their shields

i dont like it. its a slippery slope. it would seem pet focus should default to mages. spells to healers. caster shields to enc , etc. if it aint broke dont fix it. didnt seem to be a problem

This ^, additionally any of the named classes who are given special consideration by this new rule only truly benefit from it if they are a new raider, any tank that has been raiding HoT with us for any reasonable amount of time already has at least a lower tier shield to use. This system was used last night, awarding a shield to a warrior for 1 dkp, it was a 5 ac and 140 raw hp upgrade. I'm not saying the shield would have gone for more, or that the other classes that could use the shield would have even been interested, but they should have been given a chance at it . Raiders should be rewarded retrospectively not prospectively, and this is done by accruing dkp(you are rewarded for showing up night after night). If this is going to be the new road we walk down then why aren't all weapons that are dps usable earmarked for dps since tanks need shields to tank and Melees need weapons to DPS seems fair right?

[Kivanarri]

I agree with Huge and I'll go even further recommending a charge of 100dkp instead of 51 as the minimum. As Huge already stated, this keeps folks from getting some cheap loot and bolting. 100 DKP is enough to show that player/class has been contributed to the raid force. I will bet you 500k platinum the current rule change will bring in tons of players not looking to help the raid or bring out hidden player alts. Most I've seen with Public and with other raid forces use common sense on bidding which helps the raid better. Having said that, there was a big drama fest over weapon procs a month ago. I would be fine with tanks getting priority on stun procs with this rule. However, tanks do get class specific weapons like rogues each tier. The reason you will see non tanks bidding on those procs is before T4, the weapon choices were very limited to their class. Also, those in beta please provide feedback on this kind of stuff. If your in beta and don't provide feedback, SOE will continue the same fail with itemization.

Cheers!

[Kivanarri]

I agree to the fact that as a raid force we do at times need to implament some changes to benifit the raidforce as a whole, but there needs to be some sort of comprimise on this to some extent,,,these classes need these weapons but i would think that there should be some sort of minimum dkp charged for them...21 has been what i have heard from others...this gaurentees the classes get the items they need and it isnt showing outright favoritism to classes...just 1 persons opinion....well, maybe more thaqn one person, but i actually posted it

or make it free for all up to 20, and then anything beyond that only those classes can bid on it. Additionally where is the protection for daggers for rogues?

Rogues get a rouge only weapon from every tier so I don't see a need to make all backstabbing items theirs first.

The minimum dkp was bantered around - we use to have 101 as the minimum - class claim rule, but I threw that rule out years ago. We had a beast get a shield the other night because no tank wanted it. Casters have caster shield options that are specific to them also.

People wanted it, the shield is one of those ultra rare hybrid only items. Rarely will a non knight use them unless it is for crowd control, pulling, or bard on mez duty. I don't think I recall seeing a pure hybrid shield in EQ. HoT has been a funny xpac with stuff like that. I think most were surprised a knight didn't want it, lol.

[jaerlyn]

Calling this 'freebie' loot is seriously misrepresenting things.

The average price for best 2 tanking shields... (13 total): 135 dkp. Incidently, neither Casters nor Priests are on those 2 shields.
And that's with the 'inflated' drop rate, from being able to split-raid House Upper.

Average price for the 3 best bows... (17 total): 167 dkp

Also, as previously mentioned, we've seen a shield go to a beastlord for 1 dkp...


The top priest shield? We've had 2 drop. One went for 60, and one for 51.


As for hoarding DKP... If you look at everyone who has more than 500 dkp saved up -and check their attend %- you'll see that the majority of hoarding is from the non-tanks. The reason is simple. If I take every bit of raid gear from say, Yllaena, and replace it with group gear... you wouldn't notice the difference, in the raid. If -I- remove all my raid gear, and replace it with group gear, I go from being a tank into being a speedbump. This isn't the fault of the non-tanks, of course, but rather an issue of what SoE has done with group vs. raid gear.

To me, it's not about DKP at all. It's about the fact that we're here as raiders, and should -never- take an item from someone else if that item doesn't increase -our own- ability to perform our raid role.


All that being said, I also agree that the new rules shouldn't become a way for anyone to start 'collections' of any item, and we may need to watch for that.

[kaneldar]

As far as a specific class goes for loots,a minimum bid wont work.It should be if NONE of the specified classes bid then its ffa.Why should I have to spend dkp just to say I want that?

[kotter]

As far as a specific class goes for loots,a minimum bid wont work.It should be if NONE of the specified classes bid then its ffa.Why should I have to spend dkp just to say I want that?

Minimunm bid is for those in that class only. an assurance that class x isnt getting special treatment over other classes imho...If they must spend at least 21 dkp, they have gotten a top item for the night and assures others will have a chance at other loot.

If nobody in those classes want the item, then yes, bid 1 and fight it out.

Or we could all just use common sense and look at who is bidding on a item if it makes more sence for them to have it, back off and let them have it.

As far as class dagger.....rogues are few and far between....they dont need special loot rules...but once again, common sence should prevail

[kaneldar]

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:-Knowing when to come in out of the rain; - Why the early bird gets the worm;- Life isn't always fair; - And maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies, don't spend more than you can earn and adults, not children, are in charge. His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife Discretion, his daughter Responsibility, and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights,I Want It Now,Someone Else Is To Blame,I'm A Victim.Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, do nothing.

[Ragknar]

I support that there be a min bid for such a rule should the rule remain. If any item in question truly is an upgrade it should be worth spending at least 21 dkp and having that item be the raider's one item over the 21 dkp threshold for that night. Although, I suppose it is solely my own personal opinion that any bid less than 21 is a non serious bids, and that the person bidding is attempting to hold out for more/better loots, upgrade a piece of gear that can only be slightly upgraded, or bids on items that one can be used only, or best be used, in limited situations.

Besides, let us be honest with ourselves. This "new rule" was a rule before it was ever posted here and enforced by way of scrutiny from other players. It's simply been given a shinny new title, given a few new points, and become more formal of a rule.

Additionally, in a system that supposedly bases fairness of loot rights by the perceived competition of others bidding against one item, by limiting the number of classes (thereby total number of people) that can potentially bid on items the rule innately sets a precedent for such activities as price fixing; be it intentional or unintentional. By one simply knowing that other classes are strictly prohibited from bidding on a particular type of item, that one raider may now hold out until either all others have either obtained the item or are not interested in it any longer, and may then purchase that item for 1 dkp unchallenged.

The key principle of raiding consists of accruing the most possible dkp while spending the least for upgrades. The rule as it at present makes it so that it would be stupid for any such class that falls under that rule to EVER bid more than 1 dkp for any item protected by the rule. Placing the minimum bid on protected items to be that over 21 potentially limits such exploitation of the rule to . I would even for raising that 21 dkp marker I have suggested in favor of a higher number. If the item is an upgrade it should be treated as such, and not as a "rotting" item by shelling it out for 1 dkp.

[kaneldar]

The point I was trying to make was simply this.Using a shield as an example because since MMM we have had to fight casters and others for shields.Why? Does a caster need a shield just because it says they can if a tank has bid on same item?If I am the only tank to bid on a restricted item I have no problem paying a minimum fee for it of 51 or even 75 dkp to make it fair for all.I just think that having to out bid 30 others that wont use the thing during raids is flat out stupid.Sadly that is one of the downfalls of public raiding.Someone is always going to be all about me me me.Taking a bow from a ranger,shield from a tank or a focus item from a caster just because it makes them better in a group.Just doesn't make sense to me.