jaerlyn wrote:As for hoarding DKP... If you look at everyone who has more than 500 dkp saved up -and check their attend %- you'll see that the majority of hoarding is from the non-tanks. The reason is simple. If I take every bit of raid gear from say, Yllaena, and replace it with group gear... you wouldn't notice the difference, in the raid. If -I- remove all my raid gear, and replace it with group gear, I go from being a tank into being a speedbump. This isn't the fault of the non-tanks, of course, but rather an issue of what SoE has done with group vs. raid gear.
Got to call bull shit on this.
If the healers don't have the gear they don't have the mana or the focus to heal thetanks.
If the DPS doesn't ahve the gear mobs live to long and the tanks die.
Give a warrior top of the line greup gear he will die shortly after final stand wears off, but that is nto REALLy a speed bump.
Supposedly we progress as a team but it seems some team members are now more equal than others.
kaneldar wrote:Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:-Knowing when to come in out of the rain; - Why the early bird gets the worm;- Life isn't always fair; - And maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies, don't spend more than you can earn and adults, not children, are in charge. His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife Discretion, his daughter Responsibility, and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights,I Want It Now,Someone Else Is To Blame,I'm A Victim.Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, do nothing.
if he were here common sense would tell you to keep your worthless literary prose confined to your personal blog and stay on topic
kaneldar wrote:Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:-Knowing when to come in out of the rain; - Why the early bird gets the worm;- Life isn't always fair; - And maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies, don't spend more than you can earn and adults, not children, are in charge. His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife Discretion, his daughter Responsibility, and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights,I Want It Now,Someone Else Is To Blame,I'm A Victim.Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, do nothing.
if he were here common sense would tell you to keep your worthless literary prose confined to your personal blog and stay on topic
I have to agree that common sense has died, but for the opposite reason Kane had.
Because of this new rule, not that people don't like it.
those casters you are fighting had to fight you for their arm focus. why should they be restricted and forced to spend 500dkp for those 2 slots while you can get yours for 201? is your time more important than theirs? it all balances out if people spend on what they NEED instead of trying to buy everything that's an upgrade every tier
on current dkp #1 and #2 are tanks. 5 of top 15, 7 of top 20. they have plenty of dkp if they raid to get what they need unless they buy 16 items every tier. the difference between 8900 ac and 8910 will not make or break a raid
**nothin against tanks, same goes for rangers. if they bid 300 for a charm they shouldnt be upset when a warrior bids 21 on a bow. we are all fairly bright people we know what we need to play our class well and should plan ahead
jaerlyn wrote:Calling this 'freebie' loot is seriously misrepresenting things.
The average price for best 2 tanking shields... (13 total): 135 dkp. Incidently, neither Casters nor Priests are on those 2 shields. And that's with the 'inflated' drop rate, from being able to split-raid House Upper.
BECAUSE there are still other classes on those. If they know they get it in 3 drops instead of 20, it goes cheaper.
Average price for the 3 best bows... (17 total): 167 dkp
Again, BECAUSE there are still other classes on those. If they know they get it in 3 drops instead of 20, it goes cheaper.
Also, as previously mentioned, we've seen a shield go to a beastlord for 1 dkp...
So exactly WHY are we saving shields for tanks then? Because they are so hard to get that they bid for the high value of ....ONE? We are supposed to give tanks this non-tank shield for 1dkp and then let them fight it out for the tank shield for 135dkp from the SAME tier later?
The top priest shield? We've had 2 drop. One went for 60, and one for 51.
2 silk shields as well. For 100 and 200dkp, BTW. Thats 150dkp average.
As for hoarding DKP... If you look at everyone who has more than 500 dkp saved up -and check their attend %- you'll see that the majority of hoarding is from the non-tanks. 14 of 40 with 500dkp are tanks. Of course its not going to be a "majority" when there are 3 tank classes and 17? total classes. But 35% is kinda high.
The reason is simple. If I take every bit of raid gear from say, Yllaena, and replace it with group gear... you wouldn't notice the difference, in the raid.
Yea there is no such thing as healing focus. I'm sure the tanks can get by on 10k instead of 30k heals right? How about we pick a wizard instead? Thats something like half the DPS with group gear?
If -I- remove all my raid gear, and replace it with group gear, I go from being a tank into being a speedbump. This isn't the fault of the non-tanks, of course, but rather an issue of what SoE has done with group vs. raid gear.
To me, it's not about DKP at all. It's about the fact that we're here as raiders, and should -never- take an item from someone else if that item doesn't increase -our own- ability to perform our raid role.
OK so if you could just point me to the part that says it has to be an upgrade? How much of an upgrade? Same tier ok? 5AC difference is fine? One tier difference is fine?
All that being said, I also agree that the new rules shouldn't become a way for anyone to start 'collections' of any item, and we may need to watch for that.
For the record Razz,you should have checked raid item history before saying that.You would have seen I didn't fight with casters or anyone else for focus for that matter.This topic is a no win situation for anyone and will only make leaders enforce rules for bidding nobody likes.It's my dkp and I'm going to spend it like I want to.That's the public way.That's why it takes three times longer to beat content.Gearing 90 people with top tier stuff while 50 of those are nightly attendees.Again before you quote my attendance,I had no pc for better part of two weeks.This drama surfaces every few months and it will never go away.If you want a closed loot system go join a closed guild raid force.Some of them even have bots better geared than we are.With such a diverse field of people here in public someone is always going to have a bone to pick about loot rules or keys or whatever.The worthless literary prose was intended to lighten this thread.If you have nothing constructive to add to a debate shut yer pie hole.If we're all going to be babies about this take the dkp toys away and let leaders delegate how the raid gets loots to benefit the raid.Maybe then we can concentrate on progression through the next content.
nah kane, i wasnt clear . that wasnt directed at you specifically at all . when i said you i meant sheildbearers vs casters . i did check item history for arms for each tier before saying anything and tanks are not shy . thats 100% fine by me , ive said before ive got np with the way anyone bids, ever. i just expect a fair shot. ive raided every night for 9 months and i still wear 5 group gear pieces and im fine with that. if people spend dkp wisely such rules are not needed. some just spend it as fast as they earn it and then get mad when someone else has dkp left and they feel they deserve special treatment. i think theres some fable explains it better .. the ant and the grasshopper maybe?
Bottom line here Razz is like you said.IF people would use common sense when bidding it would make for faster progression,faster upgrades for everyone and heaven forbid,no more squabbles over stupid things like this.Xslia and the other leaders have been quite tolerant in this aspect.We as plate classes sk's pal,warr have been asked to not be greedy when it comes to items.Yes,some have not been respectful of this request.Casters and other classes have also been asked to use discretion when bidding but as always someone wants something and destroys that unwritten rule and this is the result.By next week this topic will be closed and in 3-4 months when new content is beaten it will surface once again as debate about new spells comes to these boards.Changes are coming for new content.Most are going to be pretty disgruntled but because of these worthless discussions.Something must be done to enforce whats best for the raid.Not individuals as it might seem on the surface.Since we can't use common sense as a group,it will be enforced by the leaders.How it will be enforced is yet to be determined but it will be!
Ok, folks. First off, be civil. Nothing wrong with disagreeing and voicing your opinions, but it does no one any good to just mouth off.
@ Zephur - You make a bunch of completely unsupported comments, and try to pass them off as fact. Those shields and bows you mentioned... they didn't go so high because other classes were on them. They went high from the classes we are talking about (rangers on bows, tanks on shields) bidding against each other, and taking them up. Back when they would give us tanking shields without all the other classes on them... we -still- fought for them, and bid them up.
Also, as to the beastlord getting the shield the other week...we had the good fortune of hitting the event that drops one of the two best tanking shield in the game early in our cycle, AND being able to split raid it. We were able to artificially (for public) increase our drop rates. As for those shields that are -not- in the 'top shield' category, most of the tanks plan their gear out for the top two or three items in each category, and stick to their lists.
Yes, there -IS- such a thing as healing focus. That 30k heal you mention? It's not 10k by a group geared healer, and you know it. Actually, -if- that 30k was tossed with SS focus, then it would have been around 27k from a group geared. The difference is even less, if the healer has a t3 or t2 raid focus, instead. As for picking a Wizard, the difference is nowhere close to half. It's about 15%, which can be almost entirely removed with a couple pieces of gear. Two pieces of raid gear on a group geared pally... still leaves them as a speedbump.
@ Eagles - You make the comment that 'supposedly we progress as a team' ... yet you have bid on gear, that was -not- an upgrade (by your own admission), for the STATED purpose (again, by you) of using it in the group game. To me, -that- is not progressing as a team.
---
People. This game isn't fair. It's NEVER going to be fair. Nothing we can do will make it fair. That being said, It would be hoped that people would only bid to make themselves better raiders, but time and time again, we see otherwise. It's not everyone, by a long shot. It is, however, something we constantly see happen.
Almost everyone here seems to agree that people should NOT be trying to get items that won't increase their ability to perform their raid role.
Look at that last line there again, please. I'll get back to it in a moment.
We -have- to progress, folks. We all see how the game has changed, there are already posts on these boards here about how the GROUP GEAR from next expansion will obsolete SS gear for the casters (mostly because of the focus degradation, but even without looking at the gear from beta, we can surmise (from the past couple expansions) that the HEM will also be high enough to replace almost -everything- below SS.) Even if they change SS focus, it -still- obsoletes anything t3 and less. We simply -cannot- afford for people to bid on stuff that doesn't increase their ability to perform their roles.
Think about what your -real- objection is here. Look at past history. Don't grab one or two examples, and try to build a case out of oddities. At the very least, -trust us- that we have the best interests of the raidforce in mind, and have done our homework. Yes, people may try to use it to do collections. Yes people may try to 'game' the system. We WILL be watching for that. If you have concerns, by all means, voice them... but please don't exaggerate them. We knew we'd have to tweak things, and we will.
-Jaerlyn.
-Life is measured not by the number of breaths we take, but rather by the moments that take our breath away.
I think that the majority of people here don't care that much about bows/2h weps and are concerned about the shield issue mainly.
There really isn't that much of a slippery-slope here. Back in the day, Ash managed to have a pretty damn good understanding of 100+ raiders' gear matrices purely from memory and occasionally you'd get an order from him in /tell or class channel to retract a bid because it wasn't in the raiders' best interest. (I wouldn't expect ANYONE else these days to be able to stack all that info in their head though)
I'd be more worried about the enchanter with a 2-expansion-old shield and plenty of dkp to their name missing out on a 900hp/mana upgrade vs. a knight getting 5ac/200hp going from a t2 shield to the t3 all/all one.
While I wish that we had people with the ability to juggle all the knowledge in their head and make executive decisions on the fly like Ash could, realistically the best we could do would be try to let common sense handle some of the situational cases vs rigid rules.
Koutarou wrote:I think that the majority of people here don't care that much about bows/2h weps and are concerned about the shield issue mainly.
There really isn't that much of a slippery-slope here. Back in the day, Ash managed to have a pretty damn good understanding of 100+ raiders' gear matrices purely from memory and occasionally you'd get an order from him in /tell or class channel to retract a bid because it wasn't in the raiders' best interest. (I wouldn't expect ANYONE else these days to be able to stack all that info in their head though)
I'd be more worried about the enchanter with a 2-expansion-old shield and plenty of dkp to their name missing out on a 900hp/mana upgrade vs. a knight getting 5ac/200hp going from a t2 shield to the t3 all/all one.
While I wish that we had people with the ability to juggle all the knowledge in their head and make executive decisions on the fly like Ash could, realistically the best we could do would be try to let common sense handle some of the situational cases vs rigid rules.
Tells were being sent but people kept bidding.
ranger bidding best tanking shield up in game to 150 and winning on random because at 150 sure no tank really wanted it monk bidding on a first drop teir 2 hdr to 150 because it would help their group game (and in PM willing to go to 350 for something he wanted badly enough) beast bidding on shields up to 51 because surely no one wanted it and it would help their group game.
We. were. sending. tells. - I don't like being threaten, it's my dkp and I'll spend it like I want. - There is no rule saying I cannot bid on that - Show me where in the rules it says I cannot bid on that - I don't like being told I should not be bidding on X item when I want it - You don't have a rule against it. - Its a free system, I'm allowed to bid on that because it has my class on it.
Tells were being sent and it cause more drama then this rule has. (After raids or during raids or the next day , email, you name it - I was the recipient of these tells or rant sessions when people were ask to rethink their bid on that item). Now you have a rule.
Anyone doing collections will be dealt with. If you already have a current tier item and are bidding on second same tier item - rethink that purchase. DKP penalty will be stiff. I'm not worried about an en-mass group of people showing up - in case no one noticed my recruitment posts - we have been minimizing the number of new raiders we are bringing in and have been for months and if anyone alt shows up for raids, let a leader know. - I've been fielding a lot of tells of people looking to raid and I have been turning lots away due to our numbers or the fact they are under geared.
jaerlyn wrote:@ Eagles - You make the comment that 'supposedly we progress as a team' ... yet you have bid on gear, that was -not- an upgrade (by your own admission), for the STATED purpose (again, by you) of using it in the group game. To me, -that- is not progressing as a team.
Yes I bid on it and got chewed out in tells for it for 20 min. Left the raid that night over it too cause I was F'ing pissed.
Was it an upgrade, I maintain yes you maintain no. Was the 2hb more DPS then my previous T3 and T2 hth combination No, though I did not know that until I parsed it out (which would have been tough to do without the item).
You bitched about me not passing to a berserker since it was a 2 handed weapon. As I told you after the fact I did not even know the other person was a berserker (I don't do /who on everyone who bids). Secondly even if I HAD wanted to pass (which I did not) I could not have because my opening bid was 20. It was never raised which means I could not have passed though it could ahve ben rebid. Thirdly (since we are second guessing everything) are you going to tell me that a second t4 2 hander going to a berserker is more useful to the raid force then a T4 2 hander going to a non berserker? If so I disagree.
You say that the reason thw bows and shield went so high was tanks and rangers bidding (though I remember rangesr bitching in ADPS when a warrior bid high for a bow and won it over a ranger), well if that is why they are high then you do not need this rule. All this does is exclude other classes that have legitimat uses for the items.
You say bid smart... Well the berserker who I won the random with was bidding on his second T4 weappon... yet he went splat every time we had the AE in MC last night because he did not have the HP to survive. Dead dps is 0 dps.
We used to have a phrase in Public, bid like you want it, we should use that phrase not rules.
Point is if you arein full T4 group gear you are not a speed bump as a tank. You aren't as effective as you would be in raid gear but every class has a legitmate need for raid gear, not just tanks.
Heck why even call it tanks, we are always told we are a tank heavy raid force. But there are three tank classes (though I often argue I am a tank). Warriors Paladin and Shadowknights... If we want to give heavily discouted gear to tanks maybe we should limit that to warriors (I disagree with that on principal too but it is "better for the raid"). Hell why not go all the way and just get rid of DKP and have people assign loot.
Who remembers the old channel (I think it got killed off just as I joined of what was it leatherdkp?)
Will we now have a bowdkp, a shielddkp and a 2handerdkp channel?
Last edited by Eagles on Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Xslia wrote:monk bidding on a first drop teir 2 hdr to 350 because it would help their group game and sure at 350 the zerkers bidding did not want it
Clarification that never happened. In tells (or was it PM's) with you and Jaer later I said I would consider the item worth up to 350 because I had a group 2hb (and it was T3 not T2). But what happened is I bid 100, Stomp raised to 150 (which I missed in spam) and he got it for 150.
What probalby caused an issue on that bid was I asked Stomp in group how much DKP he had. This was because I had missed him bidding to 150 and was suprised he had not matched me. I felt guilty about shutting him out WITHOUT a roll.
Shortly after that I got tells from Jaer berating me for bidding on a weapon better for zerkers and rather then go behind his back bitchign to you I sent a PM to both of you explaing my thoughts.
eagles is my idol hiyas all hope all is well glaD to see your all still going strong ! keep up the good fight and it seams to me every few expac the arguments always resurface remember its a game and play well together your still the best group of players i have ever had the pleasure of grouping/playing with /salute to you all
Piao wrote:eagles is my idol hiyas all hope all is well glaD to see your all still going strong ! keep up the good fight and it seams to me every few expac the arguments always resurface remember its a game and play well together your still the best group of players i have ever had the pleasure of grouping/playing with /salute to you all
