Shield, Bows, 2handers - loot rule changes.

[Neamiah]

What is the problem with 21 points of DKP ?

I can see the pro's and con's of this issue. First of all is the balance of DKP spent. Should a tank get a shield for less DKP than a non tank just because its a priority item for them? Or even from the Ranger perspective. Should a Ranger get a bow for less DKP than any other class who can use it just because its a priority item for them? To be fair to other raiders who put in the same amount of time killing the mob as the Ranger who was given first choice of the bow I will have to say NO.

I like this new rule personally others of my class may not agree but here is my reason. I am not by any means an expert in my class and I am constantly learning from my fellow Rangers every time I log in. But as far as I can tell A bow is a necessity for the class. Yes we are great at melee and we have a good assortment of spells to help diminish the mobs hitpoints, But when I see the raid leader call to BURN I click my Bullseye Disk and unload every AA or spell that will cause more damage. When you see those parses pop up and the rangers are at the top or near the top of the list..... its not because we are up there swinging our arms. A bow in a rangers hands is like a scalpel in the hands of a surgeon. No other class is gonna be able to do with it what we can. Yes other classes can use it but are they gonna use it to its fullest potential.... no. Same with Tank sheilds and 2h weapons to Zerkers.

Now that being said.... does this give us the right to spend less dkp on it than other classes who use it. Again I say no.... we will always spend what we want on an item. But I don't think you are gonna have to worry about there not being enough DKP spent on the T4 bow. Did you see how much that thing went for last time?

I think every raider should have equal right on loot that they helped earn. Thats what the DKP system is all about. Earn Equal DKP spend it as you see fit.
But the fact of the matter is that without making the best use of those items we earn we arent going to get very far in as a raid force.

I dont envy the job of the officers or leaders in Public... but I do appreciate you trying to do what's best for the raid as a whole.

[jaerlyn]

@ Jeldar ...

The fact that a class is listed on an item, to me, does not mean that a class should be allowed to bid on that item.

What we are doing here, is simply treating those items as if the extra classes are not on them.
We don't charge Kotter 21 dkp for all the rogue only wpns he's picked up.


This in no way means that those items are suddenly going to be any cheaper than they would have been, towards the end of an expac.
.
.
.
To be truly fair on items, we'd really have to allow open bidding on everything, regardless of what classes were listed on it. And yes... if we allowed that, there are people who would bid for wall hangings.
We have a line. It was at the 'equip' stage. On three items, we've now nudged it over to the 'raid useful' stage. We are watching to see if this will cause issues -in play- on caster shields.

[Jeldar]

y Hughjeee » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:19 am
Offer these items for a minimum amount of DKP (i.e. 21), if none of the above classes accept to pay that much for it then open it to raid-wide bidding IMHO

I like this idea that hughjeee has. Again this is only an issue if the item is going cheap, if the raider is unwilling to bid 21 points and its a HUGE upgrade, I have to ask ...... Is he doing the best thing for the raid force ? The other issue we would like to avoid is having one raider winning 2 items in one night due to one of the items being artificially held low..... unless you would like to get rid of that rule and lets us win more then one item that goes for 21 points or more?

Just looking to keep things fair and not have us slide into a loot council.( Last thing I want to see is ..... Sorry the only class I can see is .....MINE)

I am still waiting to hear a downside to the 21 point min bid.



Thanks !

Jeldar
Proud Member of the Public Raid Force!

[jaerlyn]

The downside is... we don't -have- a 21 pt min bid.

I haven't seen any (to me) good reasons why we should implement one.

You are wanting yet another rule added. Nothing wrong with asking for that, but I have not seen a single good (to me) reason to add it.

[Jeldar]

Jaerlyn wrote,
You are wanting yet another rule added. Nothing wrong with asking for that, but I have not seen a single good (to me) reason to add it.

1. I did not create this rule. YOU created this rule. I do NOT like this flawed rule, but I could live with it if the Min was raised to 21 DKP.

2. Lets look back at the people that you have dismissed who are not in favor of it.

y kotter » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:08 pm
I agree to the fact that as a raid force we do at times need to implament some changes to benifit the raidforce as a whole, but there needs to be some sort of comprimise on this to some extent,,,these classes need these weapons but i would think that there should be some sort of minimum dkp charged for them...21 has been what i have heard from others...this gaurentees the classes get the items they need and it isnt showing outright favoritism to classes...just 1 persons opinion....well, maybe more thaqn one person, but i actually posted it

Pravus wrote
or make it free for all up to 20, and then anything beyond that only those classes can bid on it. Additionally where is the protection for daggers for rogues?

Xslia
The minimum dkp was bantered around - we use to have 101 as the minimum - class claim rule,

Huge Wrote
I personally like 51 DKP as a minimum bid, this way it will go to someone that really wants the items at a more realistic price, forces more distribution of lewts and will help to prevent someone from getting items cheap and "bailing" to another raidforce when they get some equipment ....

Razzull wrote
i dont like it. its a slippery slope. it would seem pet focus should default to mages. spells to healers. caster shields to enc , etc. if it aint broke dont fix it. didnt seem to be a problem

Kivanarri wrote
I agree with Huge and I'll go even further recommending a charge of 100dkp instead of 51 as the minimum.

Ragknar
I support that there be a min bid for such a rule should the rule remain. If any item in question truly is an upgrade it should be worth spending at least 21 dkp and having that item be the raider's one item over the 21 dkp threshold for that night

Zephur wrote
So exactly WHY are we saving shields for tanks then? Because they are so hard to get that they bid for the high value of ....ONE? We are supposed to give tanks this non-tank shield for 1dkp and then let them fight it out for the tank shield for 135dkp from the SAME tier later?

Koutarou wrote
I'd be more worried about the enchanter with a 2-expansion-old shield and plenty of dkp to their name missing out on a 900hp/mana upgrade vs. a knight getting 5ac/200hp going from a t2 shield to the t3 all/all one.

Took me a while to find a good point in the shit storm but I FOUND IT !!!

Eagles wrote
What might be worth 20 DKP to one person might be worth 100 DKP to someone else, that is why we bid on stuff rather then using a flat price system. By helping the 20 DKP person you are harming the person who wanted it more.

Neamiah likes the rule but does have concerns

Neamiah wrote
Should a Ranger get a bow for less DKP than any other class who can use it just because its a priority item for them? To be fair to other raiders who put in the same amount of time killing the mob as the Ranger who was given first choice of the bow I will have to say NO.

Hughjeee wrote
Offer these items for a minimum amount of DKP (i.e. 21), if none of the above classes accept to pay that much for it then open it to raid-wide bidding IMHO

So to recap there are 13 out of 15 people that have posted here, some are raid leaders, class leaders, and people that you rely on for MA all who think that YOUR rule should be changed or deleted. Even the original rule was 101. Do I get to count ashorty ? =)

Please please change the rule.... it hurts no one and helps keep the peace some what. ( If anyone complains that 21DKP is too much...... again , they may not have what is best for the raid force in mind)

Thanks for your time and response.

Jeldar
Proud Member of the Public Raid Force

[sanelyene]

I see a lot of talk about this being a rule to “better the raid force? These are just a few questions off the top of my head which bettering the raid force comes into question?

• Shouldn’t buff classes get 90 spells first? Wouldn’t that be “better for the raid force?”
• Shouldn’t a caster get a damage modifier item over a cleric? Wouldn’t that be “better for the raid force?”
• Shouldn’t a warrior get a 1HS item with an agro proc over a ranger? Would that be better for the raid force?
• Shouldn’t a shadow knight get a 2hs for his group play so he can kill faster and get more experience? Would that be better for the raid force?
• People that are hoarding their DKP- with over 1000 DKP. Is that bettering the raid force?
• Why do we see berserkers getting the 2HS item then after getting that item I see them again getting another one in that same tier? Is that bettering the raid force or his game play and collection?
• Why do we see rangers bidding on all weapons when now we are giving preferred treatment for bows? Is that better for the raid force?

If anything buff classes should get the 90 spells first before any classes because it is better for the raid force. 54 people buffed up where as one person can DPS better? Why are we not getting preferred treatment here?

I think we are policing where it shouldn’t be policed. What makes public unique and special is the free loot system. If you have the DKP and you want it you can bid what you are willing to pay for it for YOUR game. Yes, YOUR game should also include grouping as well. We need to keep in mind this is a game and it’s for fun. Grouping is part of the game and is for fun.

Where do we draw the line on controlling loot and why are some getting preferred treatment and others are not? Is this all for bettering the raid force? Then why are other examples of bettering the raid force not being considered?

If we are starting to micro manage, give tells on don’t bid on that or this is that a democracy/free loot system or is that loot controlling/favoritism/policing? Do we need to police adults in a game? Perhaps but then you got a dictatorship? Is that worth it? Is the animosity you may be creating in controlling the loot worth the concept of bettering the raid force? Is that really what we are doing here?

[Jeldar]

14 out of 16.... and the list grows...

[Xslia]

[
1. I did not create this rule. YOU created this rule and had Xslia Implement it. I do NOT like this flawed rule, but I could live with it if the Min was raised to 21 DKP.

Jeldar
Proud Member of the Public Raid Force

Incorrect Jeldar - this is a compromised rule that was discussed back and forth a few weeks between us. While it might not be the rule I wanted originally, it is the one I agreed to in the end, therefore it is my rule in the end scheme of things and Jaerlyn will be the first to tell you that, so I am the one to blame.

Xslia and I have talked at length on this issue and she agreed that 51 was fair and 21 was MORE THEN FAIR

Never occurred to me anything I discussed with you as a sounding board would be plastered all over the forums. I like to get several people's opinions I value when I am mulling over things, what I said was an option, never thought I said what final form I was going to use.

[Jeldar]

OK,

So to make sure I have this straight..... it was a compromise? Really ?????????????????????????????

What part(s) did Jaerlyn give in to ? ( IE what was your idea that he lamented too ?)
What part(s) did Xslia give in to ?

OR

Did Jaerlyn just get what he wanted ?


For the moment I will put the count at 13 out of 16.

Jeldar
Proud Member of Public Raid Force

[Jeldar]

Xslia wrote
Never occurred to me anything I discussed with you as a sounding board would be plastered all over the forums. I like to get several people's opinions I value when I am mulling over things, what I said was an option, never thought I said what final form I was going to use.

Xslia
The minimum dkp was bantered around - we use to have 101 as the minimum - class claim rule,

Jeldar wrote.....Xslia and I have talked at length on this issue and she agreed that 51 was fair and 21 was MORE THEN FAIR

Now, what part did I misrepresent ?

Lets NOT stray from the issue at hand...... 21 point min bid is wrong ? and why ?

Jeldar

PS
I will inform Eagles that his comments will no longer be plastered all over the forums.

[Xslia]

I struggled with this decision and which rule or path to take on it. Bottom line the final rule was my decision. I have 100+ raiders to gear to help us continue our top end content progression, The rule is as it is for now - it will be adjusted as we see how it plays out.

I for one NEVER posted anyone name - so do not lay Eagles at my feet - um well maybe you can, but Yllaena might get a bit miffed.

[sliggoth]

Just wanted to mention a few things.

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The raid force that I was a part of before the server merge actually did limit a few drops to specific classes. The primary directed loot was spell runes, which were given solely to specific people in order to give the raid imroved buffs. Spells were awarded to give us two people who could cast each important raid buff. Did it help our raid force? Well, we did have better buffs sooner so people did have more hp, ac etc etc.

But the amount of ill feeling created was staggering. And not only from people who couldnt get spells. One of the clerics who received spell drops got quite angry that she didnt get MORE spell drops since she felt that her improved heals were far more important than any dps improvement for other classes. (she had a special built in set of blinders on loot-- but she isnt completely unique)

Overall awarding spell drops hurt our raid force quite a bit, and cost us some key people. Altho we did get some benefit in the short term and beat some events where the aoes were killing us,


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A short bit on the shield AC mitigation debate. There are a lot of views on this, partially because everyone tends to look at it from their own class point of view and partially because many people have different levels of understanding of what the whole shield AC things means.

In a nut shell: Your shown AC number in EQ isnt real. Depending on your class and where your ac is worn the real AC you have will be much lower or much much much lower. (This is where such fun things as ac caps, type of armor (silk vs plate vs leather vs chain), use of a shield and aa purchases come into play)

The big important bit is that most worn AC is reduced by a large percentage, but shield AC is NOT reduced.

This means that for some classes (silks and druids) a shield can end up being a very large chunk of your real AC. And still a substantial amount of AC for shammans and clerics.

---Which is why its such a good idea for shield users to have AC augs in their shields btw---


Now having a better AC shield will not really help a silk or druid survive a round or two of a Boss in HoT; but thats not really an important problem. If a silk or druid is on the boss then the event has likely fallen apart.

What good ac on a shield does let us do is survive the adds.

What kills the silks and healers is usually the adds. And AC will let us survive against adds a little longer, maybe just long enough to run off (say on SS #6) or perhaps self heal until a knight grabs it (or chanter mez say in fear). Or maybe just long enough to land that one last heal on the MT when we have to stand there and die.

Having more hp helps, having defensive aa helps...and yes AC really truly does help survive raid adds.


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Gearing up the raid force in a path to let the raid force beat content does make sense. But the hard part is figuring out what that path needs to be...

Some expansions have required that the raid force have an incredible tank. Some expansions have required massive dps to trivialize fights. Some expansions its more a matter of paying attention (altho that always helps)

How do we decide exactly what limits best helps the raid force tho? And where do we stop?

Yes AC helps the tanks, but wouldnt giving all the best AC items to one or two tanks help more?

Yes two handed weapons boost zerker dps the best, but it certainly lowers dps if they then grab agro and die. Do we tie 2 hand weapons to zerker hp and aa perhaps? Or change change the raid around to give them priority on UG, runes and DI?

Yes bows help ranger dps, when the fight involves ranged dps. But what happens when the bow would give a tank a boost of 50 ac and 500 HEM? Or the bow is the best AC range item in the game in the next expansion?

To open another angle on this, what helps the raid more: a ranger or zerker with 15% attend or a warrior with 90% attend winning a weapon? Or a warrior with 15% attend winning a shield over a cleric with 90%? Etc etc etc.

Where do we stop once we start?

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Didnt really want to post but a few things mentioned struck some chords for me.

Sliggoth

[Eagles]

I for one NEVER posted anyone name - so do not lay Eagles at my feet - um well maybe you can, but Yllaena might get a bit miffed.

Not if you leave her the skin for shoes

[Kivanarri]

I can't believe this thread is 5 pages long. I'm going to say this again so everyone knows about the ranger class. Rangers bid on every melee 1h because SOE did a big time royal screwing by not giving us a class specific weapon. Everyone thinks it is a bow, but it isn't. People need to get their minds out of the PoP expansion and realize this is 2011, almost 2012. SOE doesn't recognize the ranger class as ranged only. This is why they gave us a 2.0 sword. Furthermore, we dual wield mostly and that means we have to bid on more weapons, not because we want to. Bows for rangers are only good for BURNS only. A ranger using a bow on a non burn unless told specifically to range, is lazy. Sorry if it offends people, but it is true. Shooting a bow on trash and non burns is barely any dps even with the best bow available. 2H are only great with the bard AA quicktime, otherwise it is a waste, unless it is a new ranger that is poorly equipped with weapons and they are: A. Catching up or B. need a specific weapon for certain raid events (Vishmitar Eggs). Luckily, we haven't had an event that requires using slash, pierce, or blunts during HoT and thank goodness. No ranger I know wants to bid against a tank or rogue, but if they have something we know is better and it upgrades us, yes we'll bid. As for the procs, enough has been said about it. A huge failure by SOE again. For me, this is the first time I've been with the best end game raid weapons for a current expansion ever. This means, I shouldn't need any new weapon upgrades until T3 of the VoA expansion. I had no idea SS would be such a cake walk either or I would have forgone T3 weapons all together. I don't think my class should be limited to using a crappy, 26dly 1hb with stun proc for two tiers either when ratio is key to our dps. However, SOE I suspect with their gear resets every expansion will introduce T4 group weapons on par with HoT lower tier raid weapons. I truly hope this doesn't happen, but history since SOF has shown it will repeat itself. Every damn expansion since SOF has been gear reset. SOE does this to get new players and forget the current player base because they know they have your money. This is why so many cancel their subscriptions evey expansion. Nothing like having all that time and effort trivialized in one day.


I'm fine with rule changes, that is life. If 9 rangers are bidding for the bow, the highest bidder or highest random wins. It becomes a bidding war between the class. The only way I can see this going for 1 is if most have that item already. What I'm concerned with is the many avenues this will lead to. One path then branches out to many. Saneylene makes a lot of good points in her post. Casters rely on their foci, healers rely on healing foci and spells, priests rely on heals and buffs too. DPS rely on weapons more than anything else. Everyone has something important to their class/archetype and when does it all end? Tanks rely on the gear specifically. I agree Jaerlyn, a group geared tank isn't going to cut it compared to a raid geared tank. I don't agree they get priority on everything. Hell Warriors didn't use shields until SoF due to the AA.

Imo, this opens up a lot of headaches for leadership to monitor and it is a logistics nightmare. I know because I have led raids many times in my EQ time and I have seen this kind of stuff get complicated fast, even if it does have good intentions. Sliggoth is right in his post and I was with him when this was happening in our old raid force. At least you guys have attendance. The guild I know of that beat HoT in December 2010 does loot by merit, not by class needs. I'm sure some guilds do priority for plate tanks and healers, but not many I know of do that now. Personally, I like the old system you guys have been using. If people want gear, raid more and earn it. Nobody should expect to have stuff handed to them. For the record, I never complained when a warrior won the T3 bow. Why? Because I didn't have my raid attendance up and the warrior did. Did it suck, yes, but Imo,he earned it regardless if it was immediate upgrade for me or any other ranger at that time. I don't disagree with the rule change, but I do believe there should be a 1 loot limit for the night if they get that designated item regardless if it is 1 or 1 million. It just seems common sense fair to everyone else. Also, can you not just use the all time dkp earned or who has the highest current raid attendance percentage for those designated classes? It works great for keys, why not just apply that to the shields, bows, and 2H? Just a thought. Perhaps use the alltime dkp list along with current raid attendance percentage and charge what you as leadership feels is appropriate points for the item?

I hate to see folks that I've made friends with over the past year fight and complain over things like loot, especially when SOE is the one to blame This would be much easier if each tier had a Ranger only bow and Berzerker only 2h. Perhaps give bards something to make sure all classes get a class specialization tiered item. When SOE used to do these things, those items rotted often and many felt they were a waste. Anyone remember that SK wpn from Anguish ? Also, just because a class get a class specific weapon doesn't mean it is a common drop. Of all the SS clears, we've have yet to see a Leypse piercer for Rogues and only one warrior only sword from event 2. Anyway I hope this thread dies and look forward to seeing everyone in game.

Cheers!

Kivan

[Hamilkar]

There is no perfect way to deal with loot.

Unfortunately with the way that the game has decided to itemize some items the 'perfect' simply isnt available in any large number. The good enough or big upgrade is available and usually everyone wants it. Sony and Verant before them have always had specific slots that never dropped enough items to keep a raid force fully geared. They also have slots (that change around by expansion) that are overabundantly geared. I also would like to see some classes have a bit more flexibility in what their gear looks like rather than a cookie cutter mold that everyone in the class has to follow in order to be semi effective. It isnt going to happen but hey we can dream.

I have been a part of a number of loot systems including straight award, dkp, modified dkp, item dkp with highest dkp person with that item listed as an item they wanted winning it (not as big a fight as you might expect for this), random and so on. There are fights and disagreements over all of these systems. What makes sense to one person may not make sense to the person doing the bidding who may be doing it to improve the raid force or the character. Some may just be doing it to expand their collection (weapon collections are not always as detrimental as some would have you beleive). Yes some of them simply dont make sense (agro procs on dps trying to shed agro rather than gain it... and calming agro procs for tanks) But as we know every so often sony puts in an event with a specific type of dmg needed and weapons 4+ expansions behind just dont cut it. I do have to agree that items under 20 maybe should move to a ffa type status but I am not convinced that this is still the best way to do it.

I have been asked to pass on items in the recent past that were a straight upgrade to me for a dps class that was getting a minor if any upgrade on an item. I have also been asked to pass on items where the bid was 1. We used to have a rule that anyone could bid 1 on any item they could use and I feel that would still be a fair rule to include (regardless of the listed items). And really most folks dont mind other people upgrading their chars and allowing the raid force to progress. What they dont like is when folks dont know their classes or are deliberately denying them a chance to contribute to the raid. Either way most folks arent willing to spend a lot of dkp on items that are a minor if any upgrade to them but are willing to spend a lot on items that significantly upgrade their abilities.

That said I must have been on the shit list for a long time.... that or we just had a ton of tanks for a bit there. I don't mind the rules as promulgated now but I don't realisitcly expect that it will reduce the number of tells you leaders will receive.